tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post292779912656412674..comments2023-10-18T10:36:01.631-05:00Comments on 1WineDude :: Serious wine talk for the not-so-serious drinker!: Stop Picking on Robert Parker (the Subjectivity of Wine Tasting)Joe Robertshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12302860568125840279noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-2310981675851103522008-07-04T07:21:00.000-05:002008-07-04T07:21:00.000-05:00Thanks Ryan - a fine 2 cents it was!Thanks Ryan - a fine 2 cents it was!Joe Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302860568125840279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-5079043142695023642008-07-03T16:05:00.000-05:002008-07-03T16:05:00.000-05:00wine is subjective. nuff said, oh wait no it's not...wine is subjective. nuff said, oh wait no it's not! Our collective western wine loving culture may agree on some standards in this era of wine consumption thus creating an aura of objectivity, but give it a hundred years. Tastes will be different. Or better yet go to a wine show in another country. Different cultures, the most obvious being countries who have no wine culture, have tastes that differ and what is positive there is often different here. I agree you can objectively tell if a wine is oxidized, or tainted, but what about a lauded bretty Burgundy or a nice oxidized sherry? I've had oxidized chards, that if served in a bottle marked Jerez would have been held up as great wines, but instead were dumped down the sink as flawed.<BR/><BR/>do not confuse the small objective details that exsist with the subjectiveness of current fashion in tastes/flavors. Over oaked chards are loved and hated. Sherry is thought to be undrinkable by some, and the pinnacle of excellence by others(critics take both sides).<BR/><BR/>If you need to educate someone to understand what is objectively correct you are proving my point. Primarily because education itself is subjective when it comes to interpretations. Math:Objective History:Subjective<BR/><BR/>Flavors are subjective and culturally specific(if not we'd all love chocolate covered ants and rotting fish). What we call objectively correct today will tomorrow or a hundred years from now considered an oddity. <BR/><BR/>I can teach todays objective standards, and I do, but I do not claim that they are such. They are our culturally accepted, subjective, norms<BR/><BR/>my two cents have been spent... :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-42618142341364303672008-07-02T21:01:00.000-05:002008-07-02T21:01:00.000-05:00Thanks, Mark.I agree - points suck. There's even ...Thanks, Mark.<BR/><BR/>I agree - points suck. There's even <A HREF="http://www.openwineconsortium.org/group/wedontknowwhatapointeventasteslike" REL="nofollow">an on-line group dedicated to the anti-points movement over @ OpenWineConsortium.org</A>!Joe Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302860568125840279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-23168207545626564632008-07-02T18:56:00.000-05:002008-07-02T18:56:00.000-05:00Great discussion - my belief is that the problem i...Great discussion - my belief is that the problem is not with the reviewers/critics, it's with the 100 point system. No matter what Parker et al. say, there will always be those who pay no attention to the words and just say, "give me the 90+ wine." Silly, but I see it all the time. Even Gary V, who professes to be doing something different, uses the same lame system. I say use all the language you can for descriptions, but get rid of a shortcut number system. It's a crutch that we no longer need!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-52852704200277891242008-07-01T22:31:00.000-05:002008-07-01T22:31:00.000-05:00Jason:Francophile and "lover of New World Cabs"' i...Jason:<BR/><BR/>Francophile and "lover of New World Cabs"' is a *point of preference*. <BR/><BR/>That is distinct and separate from the fact that humans don't really differ all that much when it comes to their physiology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-31556762858388408932008-07-01T18:58:00.000-05:002008-07-01T18:58:00.000-05:00"I just don't buy into the "we're all so different..."I just don't buy into the "we're all so different and wine is oh-so subjective" line."<BR/><BR/>You've never sat at a table between a Francophile and a lover of "New World Cabs" (need a term for that). If their differnt opinions on tasting each others favorites can't be explained by subjectivity, then what is it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-35348331062736107652008-07-01T18:00:00.000-05:002008-07-01T18:00:00.000-05:00Well put, wineguy! One of the reasons I decided to...Well put, wineguy! One of the reasons I decided to write <A HREF="http://twitter.com/1winedudereview" REL="nofollow">wine reviews via twitter</A> was to force myself to limit the vocab.<BR/><BR/>With only 140 chars (& only about 25 chars left after typing in the names of a German wine!), you gotta go for the universal descriptors.Joe Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302860568125840279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-65989377101983092952008-07-01T16:19:00.000-05:002008-07-01T16:19:00.000-05:00I have spent more than a decade teaching people ab...I have spent more than a decade teaching people about wine, and listening to how they talk about what they were tasting. Taste may well be subjective, but there are some common shared experiences and most of these have to do with balance. The amount of perceived acidity, for example, tends to be something that everyone can agree on.<BR/><BR/>I decided that part of the problem with wine writers, including myself, was the language we used. I looked at the terms that my students have the greatest resonance with and promoted the use of these more universal expressions in my book and my classes.<BR/><BR/>I have had great success employing this reduced lexicon. I am convinced that most wine writers are doing a disservice to wine and their readers by over reaching. Keep it simple, keep it universal. Eschew fruit basket terms for something that everyone understands.<BR/><BR/>I am not saying that everyone must kowtow to my way of talking about wine, but it would be nice. <BR/><BR/>Just as a parting shot to all wine critics (including myself) I have always stressed to my readers that they should trust their own taste above all else. Wine writers may get to taste more wines, but that doesn't make us "right." If you find a writer that shares your taste, then great, but don't ever be put off if someone famous likes a wine you don't and vice versa.Wineguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15408539953674736336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-89014948999879085202008-07-01T15:24:00.000-05:002008-07-01T15:24:00.000-05:00Thanks, Ken - fantastic insight: "These days, no o...Thanks, Ken - fantastic insight: "These days, no one should have to drink a Bad or even just a Good bottle or glass of wine. There is just to much Very Good or Better stuff out there."<BR/><BR/>I couldn't agree more. There are about 7,000 wine brands available right now in the U.S. alone - no one should have to settle for plonk ;-).Joe Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302860568125840279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-78565238244437371962008-07-01T15:20:00.000-05:002008-07-01T15:20:00.000-05:00We review wines all the time. Our goal to to prov...We review wines all the time. Our goal to to provide our readers with wines we feel will meet their expectations. We only post wine reviews on wines we feel are Very Good or better. We also consolidate the scores from 8 other professionals. I like to say the most important number on my website is the number of professional recommendations. If 3 or 4 professionals (who taste a lot of wine)think this wine is Very Good or better, then you are likely to be very satisfied. Whether you think the wine is Excellent or Very Good.<BR/><BR/>A good Wine Reviewer (I hate the word critic since I only recommend wines) in my opinion guides his readers to wines that they will more than likely enjoy. If he or she is good at doing that then they will develop a following. (Obviously Parker has been successful) These days, no one should have to drink a Bad or even just a Good bottle or glass of wine. There is just to much Very Good or Better stuff out there. If someone can help you find those wines, then it a could tip. Cheers - KenKen and Theresa Hogginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18376309992084398862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-49212785727682582432008-07-01T13:01:00.000-05:002008-07-01T13:01:00.000-05:00My point in the first comment is that "Some of us ...My point in the first comment is that "Some of us might get one type of citrus, some of us another" is a factor of experience and brain training - not olfactory receptors or taste buds.<BR/><BR/>I try not to get frustrated by the tendency of wine bloggers to follow this “there is scientific evidence that we taste differently” or “scientific evidence that there is an inextricable subjective element to tasting”. The fact is that there is as much if not more scientific evidence that we are able to separate subjective preferences from objective observations. That separation is critical to objective descriptions and fair judging. <BR/><BR/>A true and reliable critic describes any wine in a way that separates the description and assessment from his/her own preferences. This paves the way for the reader to make their own decision. (Unless, of course, that reader needs/wants to be told what they like.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-65092670320365152702008-07-01T12:48:00.000-05:002008-07-01T12:48:00.000-05:00I agree, Arthur, to a point. There is certainly e...I agree, Arthur, to a point. There is certainly evidence to suggest that we bring subjectivity to our wine tasting experiences. And there is just as much evidence (in my view) that some aspects of wine tasting are 'universal' (in so much as our collective cultural tastes allow them to align).<BR/><BR/>So, most of us will agree that a particular Sauv. Blanc is really good, and most of us will taste the citrus & minerals. Some of us might get one type of citrus, some of us another - the fundamental part will be what can be shared. <BR/><BR/>And none of it will mean anything to the people that just hate the all-around taste of Sauv. Blanc anyway :-).Joe Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302860568125840279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-836834983159060886.post-5006558613941116002008-07-01T12:29:00.000-05:002008-07-01T12:29:00.000-05:00I just don't buy into the "we're all so different ...I just don't buy into the "we're all so different and wine is oh-so subjective" line.<BR/><BR/><BR/>It's nice and touchy-feely to say we are all right. But we are not.<BR/><BR/>The differences in sensory physiology are 1) not all that huge and 2) over-hyped by the people who most benefit from the hype:<BR/><BR/>1) researchers who must publish or perish, 2) wine producers who make wine of dubious quality and 3) uninformed and untrained critics who fear losing influence or facing being proven wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com